James Robert Lay:
The biggest roadblock standing in the way of future growth right now for financial brands in the age of AI is not technology, even though 60 to 85% of all digital transformation initiatives have failed or failed to meet expectations? Nope, it's not technology, the biggest roadblock, it's people, it's people on your team who must deploy and utilize these new technologies in the age of AI, and perhaps maybe the biggest roadblock standing in your way right now might even just be you. But here is the good news, you can transform these human roadblocks into your greatest growth opportunities through a focus on human transformation that coincides with digital transformation. That's because as the great Marcus Aurelius once wrote, the impediment to action advances action, what stands in the way becomes the way and the way to human transformation in the age of AI is on this episode of the banking on digital growth Podcast.
Greetings and Hello, I'm James Robert Lay, and I'd like to welcome you to another episode of the banking on digital growth podcast. Today's episode is part of the exponential insights series. And I'm excited to welcome Pia Wendelbo to the show. Pia is the founder and CEO of Scandinavian Change Agents after spending over 15 years helping lead and guide change for the largest financial services group in the Nordic Region and one of the biggest banks in Europe. And today, P and I are going to share how you can guide yourself, your team and your organization through a period of exponential change and transformation. As we journey further into the age of AI. Welcome to the show Pia it is good to share time with you today.
Pia Wendelbo:
Thanks, James Roberts, it's really nice to have the being on here.
James Robert Lay:
Absolutely. Before we get into talking about how to navigate the complexities of exponential change in this age of AI, particularly through the lens of financial services, and how learning can can facilitate some of that building a culture of learnability a culture of coaching centered around people. What is good in your world right now, personally, professionally is your pick to get started on a positive note?
Pia Wendelbo:
Oh, that's lots of stuff. That's, that's very good. At the moment, I would say, especially you'd like the place I live at the moment. So I'm in Spain, so I can't complain about the weather, which which I hear a lot from from my sort of business associates in the Nordics. They are starting to complain a bit. So So here, it's nice and sunny still. So lots of positive energy from that part.
James Robert Lay:
Absolutely. You know, here in the United States, and more specifically, in Houston, Texas, we finally have escaped the brutal heat of summer, and are now getting into the couple of weeks of fall cool temperatures. So we'll take that. And it's interesting, you talk about the idea of of energy. Because when we think about change, we think a lot of times about, particularly through the lens of financial services, digital transformation, it's been a big topic. Our research has found at a global level 60 to 85% of all digital transformation projects, quote, unquote, either fail or failed to meet expectations. But it's not because of technology, it's because of the people that are having to deploy the tech. I want to start with this. Why must digital transformation also now include human transformation?
Pia Wendelbo:
I think it's it's the it's the core, as you just said, it doesn't matter just to implement some new technology or some new system or platform. It's kind of the people who's behind it, who has to operate who needs to take this in so so not avoiding to talk about how people change around it is a big mistake from my point of view. So So I think it's the core of everything. If you want to have a successful digital transformation, you definitely need to look at the human side of it, for sure.
James Robert Lay:
What is it though, that at least up to this point, within financial services? Maybe there hasn't been a focus on human transformation yet, although I'm starting to see the narrative change, particularly through the COVID experience and beyond. But why has it maybe been slow to think about human transformation in the context of digital transformation?
Pia Wendelbo:
Yeah, that's a really good question. That was Robert, I think, I think part of it is that people actually do know that it takes time for people to to sort of navigate around new stuff, but they don't really they overestimate how quickly they think that people can take in new habits, new ways of working new ways of looking at things. So they kind of tend to underestimate that task, I would say. And another thing related to that, is that like, oh As leaders as business leaders, usually you're quite over optimistic also of what your team can cope with. So what I usually talk a lot with people about is creating Slack. So one of the first thing we look into is actually, what can we take off the plate and not put more on to it? So So that's at least one interesting angle that Celeste.
James Robert Lay:
I think it's interesting that you mentioned that one of the my favorite exercises to work with an organization through our team through is to create a don't do list. I think it's so easy to want to add more things to the list to do. But back to your point about Slack. If we don't, if we're already working at 8090 90 500% capacity, then it's very hard to create space and time to learn. And to think and to review what we've done. This idea of thinking, is something that I've been thinking a lot about, if you will, Dan Sullivan, as he always says, We got to take time to think about our thinking. And I know holistic thinking can help financial brands really consider the human side of transformation. And that's where things like behavioral design and neuroscience come into play. Let's unpack some of this. For those who are watching or listening. What is holistic thinking? And where's the opportunities here?
Pia Wendelbo:
Yeah, I would say to me, at least holistic thinking is definitely about going going in the helicopter is the word also says but for me, it's it's it's, it's, it's a variety of things that you need to go through. So it's so it's the the business's strategy, it's the ecosystem, of course, you need to consider then if the processes and the structures as well I often see so that people are implementing new technology, and then they are kind of lacking a bit to look at all the processes and structures that goes behind it, they are only focusing on the customer side of it, because the customer centricity is really popular, right? That's usually where companies nowadays start because they really want to create good customer journeys. And of course, that's really, really important. But then what I often see is that there and then lacking the behind the scenes stuff, and really looking into what kind of impact will this have on our structures on our processes, and then definitely the people partners, we were just discussing, and new ways of working the way that we are treating the customer in different parts of the organization. So the whole value chain basically also, and then the culture and the staff engagement is is really important to also create this this optimal customer experience. So I would say you have to go around the full wheel here.
James Robert Lay:
Yes. And to your point, the idea of CX or customer experience, it was I would say the hot topic from 2010 to 2020. Even whenever I wrote banking on digital growth, I wrote it through a lens of what I called dx plus hx equals growth meaning a positive digital experience when combined with a positive human experience is the path towards growth. Very quickly, though, however, through the COVID experience, I realized that I missed a key element in growth and transformation, which is the E x the employee experience because a brand's customer experience a brand's digital experience, a brand's human experience is only going to be as positive as the employee experience. internally. What are you seeing on that front right now through the work you're doing around employee experience? How, how are internal teams feeling at the present moment when it comes to change and transformation?
Pia Wendelbo:
I think we have a good long way to go there still. So I fully echo you on this one, I see exactly the same, that the whole employee part has been been really lacking their understanding of how these connects and intercalates has been missed in a lot of this. And it's back to the understanding of how we as humans actually take on change. So it's really also a lot about how managers actually learn how to cope around these changes. So they don't understand that maybe they've been sitting in their sort of business team for half a year or maybe something sometimes even longer to create a new strategy or like product or something like that, I mean vision, and then they expect everybody to take this in quite quickly. So so they overestimating again, how quickly their organization is going to adapt to this. And it might even be so that they don't even understand what they're talking about. So so we as humans also have very different perspectives on you know, understanding what what comes to us because of our different lenses right. So so I think that it would be really valuable if If sea level managers and business managers in general, were more interested in The whole neuroscience and behavioral design perspectives of how people actually take on change.
James Robert Lay:
Let's talk about that. Because when you think about digital transformation, and human transformation, digital transformation, it's ones and zeros. And I know there's a lot of discussion around data right now. But I am making an argument. No, that's great. But behind every data point is DNA. It's it's the human experience, if you will, where? Where does the practice or the science of neuroscience behavior modification? How does that fit into the, to the context of this type of thinking? And maybe, maybe also, why is there a gap today, within that realm, that could be a lack of knowledge is an impediment to future growth from an employee experience standpoint?
Pia Wendelbo:
Yeah, I think one, one thing, at least to dig into, which I think is quite interesting, and very basic, when it comes to to the neuroscience is the dual process theory, I'm not sure if you're familiar with it, but it's the system to one on to the way that we actually take positions as humans. And for me, this is quite centered around also when we're doing these transformations. So basically, what system one is all about is the fact intuitive, unconscious, stuff that we do. So it's where it's that system we use when we are basically brushing our teeth, running a bike or something like that. So So that's everything that is system one, then then we have a system two as well, which is slow reflecting, it's controlled, and it's more thinking about the future, it's rational. And as you can probably already hear from from what I'm saying here, system two is a bit slower as well. And this is where we really use a lot of energy when we're using that system. So generally, we are as humans, we are quite lazy, right? Yes, we don't want to use more energy than we have to. So that means that for everybody, we are trying to use as much of our energy on system one, you know, that's the easy part. So when we have to do things differently, for instance, in a digital transformation, where we are now implementing a new solution that demands people maybe to work differently, or think differently, or, or react differently towards a customer, then we are actually putting system two into work here. And what managers often don't realize is that this is going on. So they expect people just to take this in and just go on, as this is just easy peasy things. But it's it's actually really not. So understanding how we as humans actually take decisions and how we actually cope with things like this is a very valuable, I would say first step stone in trying to change the way that we actually implement digital transformations.
James Robert Lay:
Absolutely. In the idea of system one, system two, thinking the book Thinking Fast and Slow expands upon some of this perspective here. I'm glad you touched on the idea to have the the amount of energy that is required with these different types of system one and system two thinking. That's one of the reasons I think anytime you undergo any type of change, whether that be digital transformation, whether that be you want to get healthier, you want to start a new routine, there's going to be some type of energy that is required and why it can feel tired. tiring, Dr. Benjamin Hardy wrote a great book called willpower doesn't work. And it's the idea that when we try something new, we can have the amazing amount of willpower, but it's like a muscle it's going to eventually tire and fatigue. And that's why setting up an environment for change or transformation is so critical because the environment plays such a key role in that. Let's, let's stay on this subject here a little bit further. What are the opportunities to help an individual or help a team help an organization navigate this system one system to energetic perspective around change. Simply we're creating some awareness here. People might not even thinking about that. But where are the opportunities?
Pia Wendelbo:
I see a lot of different opportunities in this because I think that if we really start working with with the transformation differently, we will actually create capacity to take them in and then you will see longer terms sort of transformations that will actually hold because just as you were explaining, you see a lot of peaks, like people are very excited first hands on something, and then you maybe create an MVP or it goes very well the first month of this, and then it goes down again, and then you're back to square one. So I think if you're starting to understand how people react around this one, you will actually create much more successful transformation. And I think also opportunities in this in understanding that you should chunk them up. So usually, what I see as well is that you take way too big trunks too fast, you know, better take small steps all the time, instead of taking huge chunks in advance. So So I think that there's, if you work with this correctly, then you can change the statistics that we were just talking about earlier, going from BS 80 90%, of failure to success instead. So that's the big opportunity I see for the future. And people start really working with this differently.
James Robert Lay:
It's a great point around the smaller chunking things out into smaller bite size pieces. There's a Shel Silverstein poem that I used to read my kids. And it went something like this. There was a girl Her name was Belinda Mae, she thought she could she wanted to eat his monstrous Well, she thought she could she said she wished she started right at the towel. And everyone said Melinda, you're much too small. But that didn't bother Melinda at all. She took little bites and chewed very slow, just like a good girl should. So basically, she ate this well, but she ated how bite by bite by bite chunk by chunk. And what happens when you take the smaller bite, those begin to stack up over time James clear writes about this in atomic habits, the idea of 1% the 1% is exponential. And now we measure progress by where we've come from. And that creates additional momentum to continue forward. Because it raises the energy once again, it's like we're looking at us we're succeeding, we're making progress. We've We've come a long way. When when you think about the idea of progress, in regards to human transformation, I've actually looked at this through a couple of different lenses. And you'd mentioned lenses before perspective. Perspective is what I call the sum of context and framing. And really, when you're working within a team, you're working within an organization, you've got a lot of different perspectives. How have you personally navigated the complexities of change, because you have had a very interesting journey and very similar to mine, which is just unique, that are different experiences are somewhat shared parallels. And I'm curious is like how that plays in just our own perspectives. But how have you transformed yourself over the last three decades or so for decades for that matter?
Pia Wendelbo:
Yeah, I will say one of the things that I usually say is my most important tool is being curious. So I try all the time to meet very openly. So I don't I try really hard not to because I know our brains are so fast and putting people into boxes, right or things into boxes. So I'm trying to own learn that and just, you know, keep a clear, really open mind to whatever leads me and being very curious. So I think curiosity is actually one of my greatest tools. And then knowing from that, that there's always stuff that I can learn, like really telling myself that no matter where I'm aware of which level I'm at, there's always new stuff that I can learn. So I really try to meet people openly. And that means also that even though some people maybe give you a critique, or you get like a slap in your face or something, I always try to remember that it's their perspective. And even though I might not fully agree, I can't change that this is actually how they perceive me. So I have to figure out whether I want them to perceive me like that or not, oh, I should change around it. So So I think that that is one of the most important tools that I've used throughout my career.
James Robert Lay:
I appreciate that being a curious kindergartener. I think we kind of outgrow some of that along our journeys. But if we can come back to that curious mind of a 5678 year old and look at the the world through that lens of what can I learn from this experience, or what can I learn from this person having coming into a relationship coming into a conversation even in like all the conversations with the podcast I come in with an open mind looking to learn from and maybe change my challenge is my own cognitive bias like it's the Ancient Greek perspective from Socrates, what do you define his knowledge and wisdom was? I know, I know nothing. And the idea of learning, though, is a challenge. And I think about some of the work that we've done. It's been very challenging working within financial services, of encouraging that curiosity, encouraging the ongoing learning. Why is that? Because you've spent time in financial services as well. And I think if I go back, you know, you, you were building websites in the late 90s, early 2000s, just like I was CMS content management systems. And then you got into financial services over that time period. And then now you're back doing entrepreneurial work. But why the why the struggle, why the challenge to create space and time to continuously learn, we've done research on this. And we've actually found here in the US, the financial leader invest an hour to two or less, and that's about 79%, into ongoing learning and development. I just see that so dangerous in the world that we're living in right now. It's almost like if you think about financial services is all about managing risk. That's a huge risk. Why is this?
Pia Wendelbo:
I think it's because it's a world of Excel. It's a big and really short. But I think I think it comes back to not having the right framework. So that was some of the stuff that I really experimented a lot with when driving these innovation hubs. So I was lucky enough to sort of go into the financial industry and trying to, to really level out and try out different stuff. So I was a crazy person coming in and trying to turn things around. So So building up these innovate innovation hubs, for instance, we, we tried to create a framework where it was okay to experiment to play to do that things differently. And that's what's needed. It's needed that the space as we were talking about before, I really, really think it's very simple. But the slack needs to be there, there needs to be a framework and a system that kind of holds you to actually doing this because otherwise, you'll just be, you know, caught up in in your daily tasks. So I usually say that, that the long short term perspective usually eating their long term perspectives for breakfast, right? In these sort of corporate frameworks, often it's so short term, so so it's really hard to create that long term perspectives on things. So you kind of really need to fight for creating the space for it. But if you succeed in doing so, I think it's very interesting what you can do as a team actually, if you start working together on being much more long sighted being much more into the experimental work, and I'm spending some time with on weekly basis, I'm just studying or learning stuff from the ground.
James Robert Lay:
That's a great point. The idea of a lack of frameworks or systems is the impediment to action here. That actually echoes some of the work that we've done utilizing the Colby methodology. Are you familiar with Kathy Colby and her work over there? By any chance?
Pia Wendelbo:
No, actually, I haven't heard about that. So that's interesting. So my mama curious says yeah,
James Robert Lay:
no, yeah, yeah. So so this is this is gonna be interesting, because Kathy Colby uses what's called the Colby a index. And that looks at how a person naturally takes action or solves a problem. In the there are four different areas within this framework, you've got what is called fact finding. So how much information do I need? And it's all energy based? How much one of the called follow through, which is about systems and frameworks. One is called Quickstart. And then one is called implementers. Like how do you deal with a tangible world? So for example, I'm a three Fact Finder so I resist a lot of information, I'm a to follow through meaning I'm going to probably go in and look for ways to like shortcut things, just naturally. I'm a nine Quickstart. So I initiate action or solve problems by just jumping in and like let's figure this out pilot things in really trial by error. And if it doesn't work, we don't do that again, if it works. Okay, let's work it work this out again. In financial services, though, through the Colby profiles that we have done, and that we've done hundreds of them at this point. Did traditional A financial brand leader or manager will initiate action or solve problems either by factfinding, or by following through, that's their initiating action. So without a framework, it makes perfect sense as to why what comes naturally to an entrepreneurial perspective, which tends to initiate action by quick starting, why the framework actually makes them feel better moving forward, I want to pause.
Pia Wendelbo:
Give them a bit of control feeling at least because that's that's a big part of what you're saying there as well that they shouldn't feel too uncomfortable. So so it's it's a way of keeping them still in the comfort zone. But still moving forward.
James Robert Lay:
Yes. And that idea of, of comfort, like I'm completely comfortable being uncomfortable to the point to where I take ice baths to build that type of resiliency for myself. Now, not everyone is like me, I understand that. But I've made recommendations. If you want to build that like that AQ, that adaptability quotient, go take ice baths, go put yourself in uncomfortable situations, and just learn through the experience. But I understand that everyone's not like that.
Pia Wendelbo:
And I think that we have more and more in common because I do the same. Yes, yes, I like these winter baits. And that's the biggest problem actually be now here in Spain that it's a bit more difficult to take those really cold ocean jumps at wintertime.
James Robert Lay:
So in Houston, Texas, I mean, it is hot, hot during the summer, but I figured out how to do it, you just have to fill the bathtub up at night. And then from there, you have these big water bottles that you put in the freezer, and you let those in, you can get the water down to about 5050 degrees, and it's beautiful. Anyway, that's, that's a whole nother side. For those. For those who are listening or watching. If you want to take ice baths, maybe we need to do a whole podcast about that because it is about building. It's about building your AQ. But the other thing that I've been thinking about to from a mental model and a framework, because that's how my mind thinks is EQ plus AQ is greater than IQ, meaning the emotional emotional intelligence EQ and adaptability quotient is greater than IQ, just intelligence alone. And I think that's even more true. Now, as we're entering into this age of AI, I think how old you were. And I've been asking a lot of leaders this question, and it's a very rude question. But I like you know what, we're gonna get over it really fast. And when we do it as a group who do it as a team, they all laughed. But I have everyone go around the room and write down on a piece of paper, how old they were in 1994. And then they hold that up. And sometimes you'll have people in 1994, who were 3035, some people who were in their early 20s, some who are in their teens and 94, I was 13 years old myself, some people who were five years old, some people who weren't even born yet in these leadership teams. And I said, this is important, because in 1994, that was the year that the Internet came out. That was the year that it was around before, but it reached the mass consciousness of humanity and 94. And now here we are 30 years later, essentially. And we're entering this whole new period with AI in there the collaboration opportunities that come with that, but if we don't have the contextual frameworks, particularly through financial services, I think it's gonna be very challenging. Where does coming back to the framework of EQ plus AQ is greater than IQ? Where does EQ Where does emotional intelligence fall in this for you? With people?
Pia Wendelbo:
I think it's a I think it's important step definitely to take that part in and you are fully right. It's It was so funny to listen to how you describe those, those personalities, because you are right, in certain personalities are probably also attracted to certain industries and jobs in general. So, so actually taking that into account as well is quite important, I think, as a business leader, that you kind of look at your team and then try to ensure that you have a diverse set of people who have different mindsets. When when you want to do this, in a certain way, so so definitely also something to consider.
James Robert Lay:
Well, what's happened though, is two things. One, when we look at Colby, and actually it's that personality, it's a person's mo their modus operandi is is how they naturally take action or solve problems. Is that personality driven like a disc or Myers Briggs, which I think makes it very, very unique. The other thing though, that we find is what's called cognitive cloning, meaning that At the someone hires someone that is operates naturally like they do. And so you don't have the diversity of maybe not thought thought is one piece of it, but the diversity of how we solve problems or how we take action. And so we all end up doing the exact same thing over and over and over again, when it comes to exactly when it comes to some of the models and frameworks that you've worked with organizations and teams through what what have you found, that has helped people maybe see things from a different perspective? And when they see different they begin to think different?
Pia Wendelbo:
Yeah, we actually, I will say that I try to go quite operational around some of these things. So so actually investigate this, I use different models than what we would have seen. But that doesn't really matter. It's the same thing. But but you also go in and then you see, okay, how does this team actually map out? How do we as people actually look at different problems or situations? And what are our filters and all of that? So we kind of from the beginning of it knows exactly? Is there some parts of this that we are lacking in the team? Are we quite familiar? Like, are we in the same place? Are we very scattered? So we kind of know which bias we are working with, when we are taking decisions or when we are working on on a project together? So I would say that I would I would do these point of departures with teams, where we go into these discussions. We also work on, you know, how we, how would it look like if we succeed? How would it look like if we fail? Because those kinds of questions are quite interesting also to ask a diverse team because you get very different perspectives on these kinds of questions. So so actually trying in the beginning of something when you want to cooperate, to mitigate for these buyers, that might be in the team, kind of put them on the table, so everybody can see it. And you can talk openly about it is quite valuable. I would say also questions like, how do we actually prefer to be communicated with how do you solve issues? If you're fresh? approached? How do you then generally react? Those kinds of questions are quite interesting to actually put on the table, I would say,
James Robert Lay:
Oh, that's a that's a great point. Because you're you're learning more about the human experience. And then as a result, you can increase your adaptability to the people that you're collaborating with. You mentioned something on the point of failure. Yeah. What's your take on failure as part of this transformational journey, because in banking on digital growth, I wrote about the four fears that hold individuals, teams and organizations back, you have the fear of the unknown, you have the fear of change, you have the fear of failure, which a lot of times the fear of failure is very closely related to the fear of rejection. How, how do you recommend a leader deal with that? Because I think we all we all deal with these fears, but it's either a how we react to them, or be, hopefully how we respond, because when we're responding, we're more in control of the situation, what's your take?
Pia Wendelbo:
Yeah, exactly. But I would say that, again, I would, I would speak very openly about it. So usually, I do some very practical sessions around it. When you are kicking off with a new team, for instance, I will do a round of no hats. Like, you know, what is your perspectives on this and that, so you kind of get all the negative things out in the room as well. So you actually look at everybody's fear. So people actually start telling you about what they're actually fearing, of course, this demands that you first have, like, kind of a build a psychological trust in the team. But you can also like build on that and build on that and build them that and build them back. But But starting to openly really discuss it is, is at least I think a very important first step. And then another thing that is really, really important is that how you as a manager, then takes this on. So if people then start coming to you and telling you something that is really like bothering them or worrying them, you should take it really carefully how they actually come to you, you should treat it like with empathy. Because if you do so then people learn okay, it's actually okay to come and say that I don't necessarily know exactly how to do this, I need help with this. Or is there anybody in the team who might have a good suggestion on how we can solve this particular thing? So at least from my, my perspective, I think that building that kind of trust in the team is crucial, because you will also mitigate for a lot of failures. That doesn't happen because you actually talk about them before they come. Pick elephants in the room, and you can also mitigate for things that might come in the future that you can He already now maybe the stakeholders needs to be the more massaging they are, maybe this thing might not work we need more time on this particular thing here that we are trying to build doesn't really fit into the system or whatever it is. If people really dare to say out loud, when they see something that this doesn't really work, I think as a specialist that it will be better to do that than that. Then you create an environment where it's okay to learn and adapt and say that I might also have done a failure here, the you know, I thought we were supposed to go in this direction. But maybe it's better to go here with what you guys are saying or what I just experienced.
James Robert Lay:
Yes, you know, my take on failure is I'm working with my kids on this right now that because they're in this age, they're 1311, nine and seven. And so they're starting to experience failure. I'm like, listen, in the lay household, we either have winners are we have learners, we don't have failures. In this household, we have winners, or we have learners because I think if you can take any failure, you transform the sting of that failure, the pain of that failure into a learning opportunity. Well, that's something that we can apply then to the next iteration for whatever that might be in our lives. And as we start to wrap up,
Pia Wendelbo:
Fastest way to learn, that's to fail, right?
James Robert Lay:
It No, it absolutely is. And I think if we can, back to perspective, if we can just reframe the perspective of failure through our own lens into a learning opportunity, it actually can somewhat become fun, because then it's like, Ah, now I know what I can take going forward to make the future even that much bigger, better, brighter. And I think you mentioned something earlier as well, I wanted to loop back around on, we're so busy for the short term wins, we're not focused on the long term gains. That's like any type of transformation, whether that be health and wellness. So, you know, I need to, you know, run three, five miles, I need to lift weights, if I'm, you know, because in my mind, I'm, I'm going to live to be 158. Okay, so I there's a lot of things that I have to do now, to make that long term goal, but it's about habit stacking, fight finances, you know, are the same exact way, we tend to forget the long term to get the short term dopamine hit. But that's also true within our organization. So I think there's a deeper and adding to give this more critical thinking. But the the idea of the future self, we there's some new research coming out around this, it's a relatively newer perspective within psychology of the future self and how the future self influences or can positively influenced the decisions that we're having here today. Well, that works great at an individual level, but where are the opportunities to have the future sell for the team or the future self, the organization? And what are we willing to give up in the present moment to then realize the future self that we're working towards as a team or as an organization? I'm gonna give that some more thinking. But I want to wrap up on this, because this entire conversation is around human transformation in the context of digital transformation. What are the characteristics of successful change managers within an organization today? What does it take?
Pia Wendelbo:
That's a really that's, that's a good one. To end with. I will say that going back to what I actually talked about, when you asked me, what was important, I think the curiosity is, is is a really important thing. So So definitely, you need to be visionary and strong, you also need to have good communication skills. And then from, from my perspective, the empathy and the emotional intelligence, as we have also spent quite much talking about today, I think, is really crucial. And that's where I'm then you know, anchoring it back to meeting others with the curiosity purists curious open minds. And then, of course, resilience and adaptability. I think that if you want to be part of this, you need to experience it on your own, you need to be willing to experience it on your own body and not just pushing it down. But actually being part of it taking part of it is taking the wall, you know, walking the talk. And then of course, the whole stakeholder engagement, I think I think that is really important, because that's about creating the space, as we were also talking about today, I think you as as, as a change agent or leader, definitely need to create some space for your team to work around these things. So that is at least some of the stuff if I should sort of summarize that I think it's important.
James Robert Lay:
That's a great, great summary right there. I always like to send everyone who was watching or listening off with one thing that they can do to practically apply what we've been discussing here because it really is in line with what we've been discussing all change that leads to future growth starts with a very small simple commitment today right now in the press. The moment that we can continue to repeat going forward to the future, what would be the one small recommendation that that you would make for someone who is watching or listening to begin to navigate or to continue to navigate the complexities of change?
Pia Wendelbo:
Yeah, I think it's it will be to go back to their organization and maybe their own life and see how they can work out some more slack to actually start making space for for changing.
James Robert Lay:
What are you going to give up? What do you say no to what exactly what are you? What do you got to let go of to continue to grow? Pa this has been such a fantastic, wonderful conversation. Thank you so much for joining what's the best way for someone to continue the conversation that we've started here today?
Pia Wendelbo:
Yeah, they can either reach me on LinkedIn so it's P of n. Lupo? They can find me on LinkedIn or they can go to Scandinavian change agents.com My Website
James Robert Lay:
skinny Scandinavian change agents.com Connect with pa learn with pa connect with her on LinkedIn grow with her pa thank you so much for joining me for another episode of the banking on digital growth podcast. This has been a lot of fun today.
Pia Wendelbo:
Definitely it was such such a pleasure talking to you.
James Robert Lay:
As always and until next time, be well do good and be the light
