James Robert Lay:
Are you aware of how you initiate action as a financial brand leader? Do you understand how you solve problems? What about others on your team? Are you aware of how they initiate action or how they solve problems because what I'm gonna share with you on today's episode of the banking on digital growth podcast, it truly transformed my life as a leader as a husband, as a father, really as a human being just like it has transformed the lives of financial brand leaders that we have coached and guided along their digital growth journeys.
Greetings and Hello, my name is James Arbalet. And I'd like to welcome you to another episode of the banking on digital growth podcast. Today's episode is part of the exponential insights series. And joining me for today's conversation is Audrey Cannata, who is our operations lead here at the Digital Growth Institute. Andre is also our certified Kolbe consultant, which is exactly what we're going to be discussing today to guide you along your digital growth journey at your financial brand at your bank at your credit union or at your fintech. Because we've both found that the Kolbe assessment is really a practical and more importantly, a proven tool to better understand yourself how you naturally take action or how you solve problems, how you navigate the complexity of exponential change. And when you know yourself, how you take action, how you solve problems. That in turn, helps make you an even better leader and an overall human being. But before we dive into this conversation, I want to make this very clear from the beginning that the Kolbe assessment has nothing, nothing to do with personality, as many financial brand leaders assume when we coach and guide them. So we're gonna dive deep together. Welcome to the show, Audrey, it is always good to share time with you.
Audrey Cannata:
Thank you, James. Robert, excited to be back. Talking Kolbe today.
James Robert Lay:
You know, before we get too far, deep into the subject of Kolbe and the value and the benefit that it has created for yourself, it's created for me, it's created for financial brand leaders that we advise and coach on their journeys of growth. What has been going well, for you personally or professionally, and as always your pick to get started on a positive note.
Audrey Cannata:
Yeah, so I just got back from New Orleans. I was there over the weekend, I had an event there. And I had just such a very interesting experience while they are and I love New Orleans, because it's just so fascinating, you know, piece of history there. But I was at an event and I met a random person from Austin. And we got to chit chatting, you know, what do you do? Where are you from? And the conversation ended up with me sharing my favorite book, The obstacles away by Ryan Holiday. And he immediately lit up. And so me he's been studying Marcus Aurelius, which, you know, he was the inspiration behind the book has his famous quotes. And so I thought, oh, my gosh, here I am with all this, you know, roomful of strangers. I'm sitting next to this person you don't hear Marcus Aurelius being talked about very often. And so he shared with me one of his favorite quotes, and he actually had it on his phone and pulled it out. And it was so timely for me to read all about this, you know, having this inner strength and self control and not letting anger take you over. And I could not help but think this was one of those meant to be moments is whether or not you believe in those I definitely took it as such. And it was really, really a memorable experience for me.
James Robert Lay:
Well, I appreciate that, because it's exactly what we're discussing here today. It's this idea of awareness and knowing yourself, and that's such a deep part of stoicism, you talked about the obstacle is the way it was a book that you and I went behind the cover on back in episode 245. And, and we have introduced the subject of Kobe, going back to Episode 124, where we were talking about empowering the growth potential of teams. But today, I want to go even deeper, because awareness is such a key part of the transformational journey and model that I teach and coaches you know, for those who want to grow, you have to act for growth and act as an acronym for awareness, commitment and transformation. Because when you take awareness and you add commitment to it, that lead you down a path of transformation and growth. So, let's let's start with, I would say the science, if you will, behind, Kolbe in the Kolbe assessment really rooted within three different parts of the mind, what are these parts of the mind to be aware of?
Audrey Cannata:
Yeah, so there are three parts of your mind. You have your cognitive side, and that is your intellect, your skills, your reasoning, then you have your effective side and that's your motivations, your desires and your personality. And both of those are very important parts of the mind, but your cognitive and your affective part to your mind those alone, you know your your skills and your motivation. Those alone are not enough to predict success and So there's this missing piece of the mind that is not often talked about. And that is your cognitive side of your mind. And that is your doing that is simply how you are going to get things done. So when you remove your skills, and you remove your desires, your motivations, it's how are you naturally going to take action. And this is innate, you know, this is something that you're hardwired. And so it is going to stand the test of time, this is this is natural. And so it's how you make decisions and solve problems. And so I think it's so important to understand that because when we're operating on just our intellect, or just our motivations, we can't rely on on that for success.
James Robert Lay:
And when you're talking about this is how you act, this is how you do this. And when you think about what you do, you're either going to take some action, you're going to solve a problem, which is one of the reasons that we built Kolbe into our methodology here, because we have the four environments, the four seasons, for exponential growth, where an individual can be learning, they can be thinking based upon what they've learned of how to apply that knowledge to then go on and do to then create some space and time to pause, review and reflect. And so when we look at those three different parts of the mind, you're right, the cognitive part of the mind is not very well known, at least for the vertical that we're working in, within financial services. You you look at the other two parts, and you can test knowledge with IQ, you can test personality with a disc and Myers Briggs. And that begs the question, why why invest time to, to look into the cognitive part of the mind, because like you said, this is an innate
Audrey Cannata:
it is, and so the cognitive part of the mind is all about your mental energy and protecting your mental energy. And so it's so important to understand that so a really great, great example that I that I have, personally is I was a teacher for many, many years. And I was great at it, you know, so my skill, my cognitive side, you know, I had I had the intellect to perform well. And my effective side, I liked it, I was motivated. But over time, I was very, very drained, I was exhausted. And I could not understand why here I am in a job that I'm great at that I love. But yet something isn't right. And I felt drained every single day. And so understanding that the the job requirements that being a teacher required, it forced me to work outside of my natural operating mode. So it wasn't that I couldn't do it. It wasn't that I didn't like it. But I was being forced to, to perform, and to take action in ways that were not natural for me. So it drains my energy. So it's really important to understand that and I think for a lot of us, you know, for me, I it hurt my my confidence level I really was I felt like there was something wrong with me, Well, why is this not working out? For me, I felt like I was failing at something. But once I realized it had nothing to do with my skills, it had nothing to do with my personality or my motivation. It had everything to do with just the way I naturally operate. It was such a gift to be given. And so I think this missing piece is almost the most important piece of the puzzle to look at.
James Robert Lay:
And we have we have gifted so many leaders with the gift of Kobe, to help them understand and know themselves better of how they take action. I think even you know without my own personal story, it was 2017 Whenever I took my Kolbe assessment, and I was dealing with a lot of things, there's a lot of conflict. And it was because I was working outside of the way that I would naturally take action. Whenever I figured out how I do take action naturally from an energetic standpoint, and I do it by just doing what we're doing now. It's quick starting to use the Kolbe perspective, I can do podcast all day yesterday, you talked about being in New Orleans recently, I was you know in New Orleans yesterday as of this recording, and went for five or six hours with kind of a very light agenda. But it was a so much Quickstart energy needed that whenever I came home to for kids, I was just perfectly fine. On the opposite side of the spectrum though. Please, please don't ask me to follow through with something and I think that's that's one of the things with Kolbe. It's, it gave me the awareness that I can do that follow through work or that fact finding work. But I'm going to be tired, I'm going to be drained. I'm going to probably even be just a little bit grumpy. And that's where I want to come back to this idea of, of energy. So psychological in ergy, if you will, because that psychological energy than transmutes into physical energy. What do you mean by this?
Audrey Cannata:
Yeah. So if you think about when you're working outside of your natural operating mode. So for example, you know, for me, I am very systematic, and I follow processes, I create a plan. I have my checklist, I naturally bring closure to things. Those are the things that give me energy I'll never forget, right after I read one of the new traction books process, I went through, and I did a review of all of our internal processes. And I, James, Robert, I think I told you this too, I sat there for probably four or five hours, and went through line by line and edited and created all these internal processes. And I'm telling you, the time went by.
James Robert Lay:
You're exhausting me, you're exhausting me.
Audrey Cannata:
Just talking about it, you're dead. But I felt like 20 minutes I was in such a flow state, because that is where I naturally get my energy. That is where I lead the charge. And but on the flip side, if you throw something at me last minute, or you asked me to work up into that, or if I accidentally work up into the deadline, it is going to exhaust me in a perfect example, when you know this, but in just full transparency, I was nominated for a Kolbe Professional Award, and I procrastinated had a lot of things on my plate, I waited to the last minute, partly because I didn't give myself time to make a plan and make a system on how I was gonna tackle that application. I waited to the deadline, I literally turned it in the day it was due I worked until 1011 o'clock at night. And the very next day now I turned it in, it was on time. It was done. Well, it was good. But I was exhausted. I think you and I met like midday through the next day. And I said I am I'm spinning NIGO stop for the day, take the rest of the day, rest your mind. And so that just shows how when you're working outside of your strengths while you can do it, you know, I completed the application, I hope hopefully did a great job. But it took a lot of energy from me.
James Robert Lay:
Well, I want to pause on this point for just a bit because I remember when you're going through and I said listen, let's have a conversation about this before you submitted and almost kind of did a very informal probably should have just recorded it because would have been a great podcast. But But what what I think was was happening is I know how I initiate action, and I was quick starting because I don't really need a playbook, I'm just going to solve problems. And just I'm just gonna do it. And that's gonna figure it out. Yeah. And what I was I was doing is I was able to use my QuickStart energy to give you more clarity to give you some perspective that you could then go the playbook. Exactly. to then go away. And I think when I think about our relationship, it's, I make a lot of things up, then you make it real. And then you go look, how can we make this repeat. And that was something that I learned from my time in strategic coach with Dan Sullivan. You make it up, you make it real, you make it repeat. But Kolbe does play a big role in this here. Particularly when it comes to making sure that you have the right people in the right seats.
Audrey Cannata:
Yeah, absolutely. And I think about, you know, the way we differ from our ways of taking action and how, like, for example, on the application, you naturally jumped in and not a problem. I called you up right away, and you got started, whereas I needed more of that playbook. And I think back to before I knew my Kolbe, when I first came back for two or number two, I kind of felt this need to almost mirror your strengths. You know, you're very innovative, you have ideas left and right. And so I kept thinking, well, that's not me, I'm not coming up with all these ideas. In fact, I'm actually questioning a lot of your ideas. I'm pushing back a lot. And I'll never forget one day a few months in, I pulled you aside and I said hey, I just want you to know, I'm not being negative whenever I question or probe or poke holes in your ideas. And, and of course, I was always doing it very respectfully. And you told me no, no, I understand. And I appreciate that. But it wasn't until I got my Kobe results that I realized, wait a minute. My my strength here isn't to innovate. That's James Roberts. My strength here is to be protected it is to mitigate risk. So really, I'm I am bringing value because I'm asking those questions. And for me, that was a major moment in my self confidence. And it really empowered me then to feel comfortable with what I'm bringing to the table. Well, no, I'm not generating all these ideas left and right. But I am still bringing value to the organization by being a little bit more protective.
James Robert Lay:
It's interesting that you note that because if I think back to when you were around for tour number one coming right out of college, and I didn't have the self awareness that I had back that I have now that back then as a leader, I was extremely unaware. And what was happening, and we're going to come back to this point, but I just want to plant the seed now. I was, I was hiring people that were like me, I was hiring a bunch of quickstarts. And we were extremely light on the follow through of system building and, and repetition. And like you said, you come back after you read process from the traction series, you got a ton of energy going to look at systems and processes line by line. And I'm like, No way like I can do it. And that's the thing. I think that's the most important thing, when you understand your Kolbe profile, right, you can work outside of your, the way that you naturally take action. But once again, it's going to drain you, it's going to exhaust you. And it's through Kolbe that I have gained not just awareness in myself or you. But also with the financial brands that we are coaching, and guiding and advising, which has been really transformative, what are the patterns that you have observed? Because you are facilitating a lot of this, when it comes to what we would call the bankers, Mo or modus operandi is how they naturally take action.
Audrey Cannata:
Yeah, so we've done a lot of Kolbe assessments with those and the financial industry. And I would say about 85% of them follow a very, very similar Mo, which is they are initiating fact finders or initiating follow through which means they're their expertise comes from their experience, they rely on historical perspective to make decisions, you know, they they focus a lot on priorities, which is wonderful, these are great, great strengths to have in the industry. But because there are so many, like we see, you know, so many very similar emos in this area where, because they are initiating factfinder, many times they are resistant, and what we call Quickstart, which means they're a little bit more resistant to change, it makes it a little bit difficult, because we see what's called cognitive cloning, which is where you kind of have everyone in the room, it's almost too much of the too, too much of a good thing. And a lot of times that can hinder progress, and hinder growth because you have a lot of these really intelligent people who research and they need to know all these facts before making decisions. And they're very protective. And they're very risk averse, all wonderful for strengths that we want and our bankers and those in the financial industry. But when it comes to growth and change, it makes it a little bit more challenging.
James Robert Lay:
I think about the pattern matching here, the pattern matching of just essentially people with within the the vertical, whether they're at a bank or a credit union or at a FinTech, and because you're talking about how they're initiating action, either through fact, finding one of the other patterns is also through follow through or by building systems, by maintaining systems. In when it comes to change, and transformation, and really even innovation, a lot of that is being spurred by those that initiate action by quick starting. That's a very typical though, what we would see is more of an entrepreneurial like profile in when you think about that idea of entrepreneur, if I look within a financial brand, that actually might be an intra pro newer, and it's in a someone to come in and kind of stir the pot, if you will, I think of this one organization. And maybe you could provide some more perspective of this as well. But cognitive cloning this this one team that we've been working with for quite a number of years now actually, they all share a similar profile. And when we did their Kolbe assessments, and we did a to a comparisons and then a team analysis and you kind of map everything out. So you have visualization of where everyone falls within within a matrix. It became very clear and people kind of they laugh and they they nod their head it gives also a little bit of affirmation, right?
Audrey Cannata:
Yeah, absolutely. This is actually a really unique situation because this is marketing team. And oftentimes, when you're with a marketing team, you tend to see those initiating quickstarts where they are more innovative experiment a little bit more, but in this case, and oftentimes in the financial industry, that's not always the case because a lot of those who end up in other departments marketing sales they've grown from within. So they may have started as tellers or as frontline. So in this particular case, the marketing team was all initiating fact finders. So when you put a lot of these initiating fact finders in a room, you're susceptible to what's called analysis paralysis. It prevents things from moving forward the needle moving forward, because everyone needs to have their their research done ahead of time, or they're, they're too busy looking up information and getting bogged down in the details to where decisions just aren't being made. And so this team has done a really, really great job of working with this cognitive cloning and not letting it hold them back. A couple of the strategies that I can think of offhand is, you know, they set deadlines really make sure they adhere to those deadlines, so they don't get stuck in this never ending, you know, research rabbit hole, they set real hard and timers to their meetings, send out agendas ahead of time, so that those who need to do that extra little bit of digging for details can do that prior to the meeting. And also working independently, really dividing tasks among each of the individuals, and then coming together at the end has really helped them kind of get past this potential risk of cognitive cloning,
James Robert Lay:
I'm going to add to that because I also often play the role of going in there as the Quickstart as the one who stirs the pot from a positive perspective and gives them that Quickstart energy. Knowing that they're going to have to go back and do maybe a little bit more fact finding, but that's where the coaching and the accountability that we're providing them ensures that they continuously are moving forward, they're making progress and they make progress, but not by looking at what they still have to do. They're making progress by measuring where they have come from, and that builds their confidence because you mentioned your your own confidence just a moment ago, confidence is one of the most important aspects or elements that any leader needs to protect. Because confidence is contagious. And when you get a room full of confident people, that's where in some really, I would say your transformative things can can truly happen. So it's this idea of Kolbe. It's, it's all about being free to be yourself. Right?
Audrey Cannata:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it really is a gift, to be able to know thyself, and, and to almost feel validated. And this is the way I operate. And it's okay. It's nothing personal at all. I think of many times we've had members in our organization who have come to me, you or I, with some sort of internal conflict or conflict on their teams, and they just want to talk about it and they can't quite put their finger on what's going on, or why are they feeling this this level of stress. And the first thing that I do is I pull out their Kolbe’s I look at each of their Kolbe profiles, and more often than not, that's where the conflict lies is in this opposing either this opposite way of taking action, or maybe they're taking action the same way. And they're almost butting heads a little bit. And it really D personalizes things, I think a lot of times we get we get lost and taking things personally when things aren't going our way especially in the work in the work environment. I know you know in the beginning for you and I we are complete opposites are Covey which, which creates the most beautiful synergy. But it's only because we're aware of that. And we know how to complement each other's strengths. But if we took that away, if we completely remove that, knowing our Kobe, there's a very high probability that that things might get a little tense between us on a on a personal note. I know that, you know, if you if you called me up out of the blue and said, Audrey, I need you to jump on this podcast and five minutes and be ready to go. If I didn't know my Kobe and you're Kobe, I might think that that is so not cool. Like how, why would he do that to me? Why would he throw me into this situation? He knows better. And I might kind of take that a little bit negatively. But Well, for one, you know, my Kolbe, so you probably wouldn't do that. And also I know you're Kobe and I can push back in St. James. Robert, hold on your quick starting me a little bit. I know you didn't think think that you were you know, doing anything personal. And you might say you're totally right. Let's schedule it for maybe tomorrow. So it really helps us to take away some of this potential conflict and recognize this is just the way that we operate.
James Robert Lay:
What you're tapping into is something that I've never thought about through this context here, which is the pyramid of human relationships that I wrote about in banking on digital growth. And as my thinking is evolving, now wrapping up banking on change the pyramid of of human relationships, still stands the test of time. It's something that Lina and I my wife, and we've had a lot of conversations with her about this. We develop this through pattern matching code couples that were preparing for marriage. And when when you look at the foundation of every positive relationship, and I've asked this now hundreds of times to financial brand teams, I've said, Well, what's at the foundation of every positive relationship. And 99% 98% will say, Trust, trust is the foundation and I say, you're you're on the right path. Trust is actually the glue. The foundation, if you will, is respect. And when you're talking about this, through this idea of synergy, there's a tremendous amount of respect that comes for the other person. Because number one, I know myself, I also know the other person. And as I've talked with my kids many times before, you cannot respect another human being until you respect yourself. And in respect comes from knowing one's self. And that we've we've seen this idea of respect to also do the work that we've been doing and the coaching that we've been doing with with financial brand leaders. I know you are part of an experience to where I think it almost, you had to keep your jaw from from from hitting the floor. Because you saw how I handled this really tense, very uncomfortable, sit and almost could have been explosive situation. And the only reason I was able to navigate that conflict was because of I understood this other leaders Kolbe profile.
Audrey Cannata:
Yeah, you did. And you You also were able to Quickstart, because you've mitigated the situation immediately where I was still frozen. And I would have needed a quick timeout to come back and make a plan and a course of action on how to tackle it. But yeah, absolutely. You know, we were working with a certain individual, it was actually a group. And we were presenting a lot of different recommendations and suggestions. And in hindsight, it was a lot, it was a lot of information. And it was all happening very fast. And the leader of this organization, he had to stop us. And it was a very intense and abrupt stop. And he mentioned that he felt ambushed. And he was very defensive with the recommendations that we were providing. And, and when we stopped to think about how we were going about doing this, we realized we were giving him we were forcing rapid change on him to quickly this is someone who had been in this industry and in this position for we're talking 50 years. And so we came in and disrupted this legacy way of thinking and their methods and their processes, and it jarred him, it completely jarred him, and it was too much too fast. And so when we step back, we realize, okay, this isn't personal. He's not he's not frustrated or mad at us. It's the way this information is being presented to him. And so we completely flip the script, we stopped, we broke things up into more manageable chunks, we created a system because he wasn't initiating or he isn't initiating follow through, which means, you know, he needs those systems and those processes, and those predictable patterns. So we stopped. We chunked everything up. We created a regular cadence of meeting so we could get comfortable to this sense of routine. And it really made all the difference. But there was a moment there were I mean, it was it was pivotal. It was gonna go one way or the other. And, you know, I think Kolbe is probably the only reason why we navigated through it.
James Robert Lay:
Absolutely. And I would say coming back to this idea of respect that I was touching on before empathy. Yeah, empathy. Kolbe, for me, personally has allowed me to be an even more empathetic leader. Because when I look at empathy, it's the idea you don't understand someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. Now, while I might have not had the experience of this other individual, I was very empathetic to where they they were at that time, and I was able to meet them at that moment versus asking them to come and meet me, I was able to come and meet them. And I think, you know, as we start to wrap up this conversation, we probably can come back and have another one because Kolbe is doing a tremendous amount of work to create awareness for people in regards to their their financial Mo. And that's an area of opportunity that I'm seeing to further expand upon through the work that we're doing with financial brands, with banks with with credit unions with fintechs. Before we get there, and I want to wrap up, up here always on a practical practical note. what's your what's your recommendation for someone who is watching or someone who is listening to our conversation here to to to apply some of this Knowledge, maybe they've never taken Kobe. And obviously the recommendation would be to, you know what, I'm gonna put it out here. If you're listening, and you're interested in Kobe for yourself as a leader, text me 83254957928325495792 This is what we do. This is how we help. And we can provide some more perspective, at least for you, if not your team, but but even if you don't do that, what's one thing that someone can can do who is listening to Dilys just become more aware of how they are not personality, but how they just how they operate.
Audrey Cannata:
So I would say before even taking the Kolbe, I would get out a pen and paper and I would journal through it, I would make a list of all the things in your in your day to day life, whether it be personal or professional, the things that drain your energy, what exhausts you, what are some things that you might feel like you're procrastinating, make a list of those things, and then make another list of what are the things that give you energy? What are the things that you could do all day long, and just feel like you know, time goes by so quickly. Make those lists, look at them, analyze them, then go take your Kolbe assessment, and see if you can do some pattern matching, you might find out that you are in a role or you're in a position where you're working against your natural operating modes. And that's a conversation to have, well first with yourself to realize, okay, this is why this is why this is happening. And then also with your team or your organization and hey, maybe maybe I'm the right person, but I might be in the wrong, the wrong seat here and this is how we can better you know, optimize and be more efficient as as an individual team or organization.
James Robert Lay:
That's a fantastic point. Do that before even thinking about taking a Kolbe assessment because you're creating awareness by just simply sitting down and looking at kind of your day to day objectively and most likely once you take your Kolbe assessment you're going to be able to identify those areas that are increasing your energy or those areas that are decreasing your energy sucking you dry in as I always kind of joke making you just a little bit grumpy. So I really appreciate that as a practical next best step Audrey. If someone wants to continue the conversation that we started here today what is the best way for them to reach out say hello?
Audrey Cannata:
Absolutely can find me on LinkedIn. I'm always there Audrey Cannata probably probably the only one out there.
James Robert Lay:
Connect with Audrey for sure learn with Audrey grow with Audrey Audrey, this has been such a wonderful conversation. Thank you for joining me for another episode of the banking on digital growth podcast. Thank you, James. Robert, as always, and until next time, be well. Do good. Be the light
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
