Joel:
Where are these Americans going? They're going to payday lenders and check cashers. So if credit unions and banks stop offering overdraft, they don't offer alternatives. They're going to go somewhere where it's going to provide that need.
James:
Greetings and hello, I am James Robert Lay and welcome to the 148th episode of the Banking on Digital Growth podcast. Today's episode is part of the exponential insight series, and I'm excited to welcome Joel Schwartz to the show. Joel is the founder and co-chief executive officer at Double Check Solutions, a financial technology company, generating revenue for financial brands by giving consumers and small businesses, more transparency and control by calming the confusion and chaos of non-sufficient funds and overdrafts. Welcome to the show Joel. It is so good to have you on today, buddy.
Joel:
Thank you, James. I'm excited to be here.
James:
Before we get into this great conversation and an important one that is impacting so many different lives. Doesn't matter if you're a consumer. It doesn't matter if you're a small business before we get there, I always like to start off on a positive note. What is one good thing that's been happening for you? What are you most excited about right now, personally, professionally? It is always your pick.
Joel:
Personally, my daughter just started at UC Irvine, my son's back in school enjoying life. Professionally, a patent issued last month for our technology. So we get to own the sector. That's been incredible and companies doing extremely well. I have incredible team and that's probably, if I give both scores, I'd give them both nines and they can't get the 10 yet is because you never know what's around the corner.
James:
It's exactly right. You always want to have that little bit of room to do something even better to optimize, to take it to the next level, to grow from good to great.
Joel:
That's right. Make that nine even stronger than what does that 10 look like? And what does that 10 feel like for that? Even for that, that small moment.
James:
Turn it. What was it? Turn it up to 11. There was a movie with amp. We're going to turn it up to 11. And it was kind of a parody. I can't, it was a rock and roll movie. I cannot think of what it was, but you want to, you want to crank it up to how can you crank it up louder than a 10? Because you put an 11 on the amp and just you turn it up to make it level 11 so.
Joel:
I love it. Always get better.
James:
Exactly. Let's crank it up today. When it comes to the work that you're doing, the important work the meaningful work, because according to an American banker article, PNC found that overdrafts have been the number one pain point. The number one aggravation for customers for consumers and Vox reported between March 13, 2020, and September, 2021 account holders filed over 1600 complaints against various banks to the CFPB about overdraft fees. I'm curious, I want to get your take on this. Why are overdrafts becoming such a hot topic. Now, maybe even a flash point. What's created this environment? What's created this buzz?
Joel:
Yeah, it's almost the perfect storm. One is we've had a complete change in political climate. So, the consumer protection side has never been larger and higher and more focused. And let's also look at our situation. We just came, we're still in COVID actually, but came out. We're just coming off the high of COVID where the government was giving out trillions of dollars just to keep people afloat. So the dollars, every dollar that was being collected by whether it was the low to moderate income or individuals, everything has a bigger focus on. So it's not just the complaints, what are people complaining about?
James:
Right.
Joel:
And then the complaints and that rolls over to the dollar numbers and the dollar numbers are, well, why are you charging so much?
James:
Right.
Joel:
And it doesn't really get to go root of it. It's a hundred percent the perfect storm of events are taking place, which is why our technology has become so, it's always been needed out there, but it could never, and has ever been more relevant.
James:
It is, it is the perfect storm. It's a lot of these different factors, elements hitting all at once. And we've been seeing some optimization around overdrafts happening for the past few years in the FinTech space. For example, Chime, they have spot me covers customers who overdraws as much as $200 past their amount in their account. We got Vero, Varo who covers transactions up to $50 over a user's balance and both, Chime and some of these others they're targeting a millennial and a really a gen Z demographic. When it comes to the pain of overdraft, what can we really be aware of? What can a financial brand, what can the Deere listener be aware of when it comes to evolving customer expectations in this space here? Because there are things that are happening and moving pretty quickly.
Joel:
Yeah. Well, technology obviously aligns all those, Chime you just mentioned, obviously technology advantage. There's the gen Z and what we're going after formal millennials, I guess, but they want service and they want service in a particular way. Now Chime has said, we're not going to charge for certain ways. We're going to give you an extra $50. We're going to pay it off. And even Chime who it goes back to what overdraft initially started out. So the overdrafts intent was to pay a certain amount of items to cover it.
Joel:
And rather than the item actually leaving it. So the expectation is how do I continue to give service the way my customer demands I get my service? And if my bank, my local bank, isn't going to give it to me the way I want it, or is Chime going to offer it. And each one of them offers a unique benefit. And as it relates to overdraft, how do I get when I have a problem, and I know this is the whole topic of our conversation, and we'll get over and over, how do I get the access and control that I want at the time that I actually want?
James:
Right. Well, I think that's an important point. Let's dive deeper into that because I always find that if we can, number one, identify number two, name, a common enemy. We have the ability to create a community around defeating that common enemy. And in this particular case, the common enemy, the villain of our story today, our narrative is overdrafts.
Joel:
Yes.
James:
What are the opportunities? No. Before we get to opportunities, I want to.
Joel:
I love where you're going with this, by the way. I love, love where you're going with this.
James:
I want to take it a little bit of a different path before we get to the opportunities, because we're speaking about a common enemy, the overdraft, we're speaking about a villain. What is a common belief? Let's take an insight out point of view here from the mind of a financial brand leader, what is a common belief that a financial brand leader might have around overdrafts that you just disagree with?
Joel:
That is the biggest misconception that it's about the fee. It may be, sometimes it's the cost of it, but they think it's about the fee. And when you realize it's not about that, so my history and I give a little bit of my background here, too. I came from the banking industry and worked in banking for almost 20 years. And how I thought of what double check actually does, was hearing what my customers were actually yelling and screaming about and the misconceptions, "Oh, I had to pay 35 or 70 in fees." Now that really wasn't the problem. If you really heard what they were yelling, "Do you realize what just happened to me? I now have late fees. My mortgage company is nagging me. I took a 50 point hit on my credit cause you didn't give me a call back."
Joel:
And the customer was saying, "Why didn't you let me know, what was that actually happening?? So what they needed was they needed access. They needed flexibility, they needed control what was actually happening. So when you see these institutions out there saying, "Oh, we're going to get rid of our over fees. We're going to, we're not going to do it." Well, what are you really doing? What you're doing is you're exasperating the problem.
James:
Right.
Joel:
Yeah. I thought of actually something earlier and it was a flight or fight and the flight or fight of overdrafts. And this is the first time I've ever meant to it, which would be on this podcast, which I think we're going to start using you more often is what do you want to do as an institution? So the misconceptions, "Oh, well we're charging fees. And what we'll do is we'll stop charging them all together."
Joel:
Okay. Well then that means that's the flight. You're going to leave your customers. And you're going to say, "You know what, we're going to send everything back, but we're not going to charge you anymore. And we're going to turn our backs on you." Who that should be saying is we're going to fight for our customers.
James:
Yes.
Joel:
And we're going to give them the service. We're going to give them the control. We're going to give them the access that they want. And that's the decision the institution has to make. So if your perception is, "Oh, we're just going to get rid of overdraft fees." No, no, no. That's not what it's all about. So I think that's the biggest misconception it's not about the fees. No, some institutions have lowered it and I give them, and that's what they should be doing because there could be an affordability aspect.
James:
Sure.Well, and I think this idea of fight or flight coming back to this idea of a common villain here is when we think about overdraft and you look at the data, it really disproportionately hurts the lower income consumer who really needs the protection the most. We look at a study from the center for responsible lending in 2020. And they found that 9% of bank account holders pay 84% of more than 11 billion in overdraft fees collected every year. And now's the time like you said, the perfect storm, the common enemy, the villain. Why should financial brands be thinking about revamping overdraft policies now, before they're forced to do it say before Congress enacts something that forces the hand, makes them do it for them.
Joel:
A little bit of is Congress going to really help the customer? Because you just said, look who's using the overdraft. Why are they using the overdraft? Another great number is 6% of US households are unbankable. And that's 14.1 million Americans. 18.7% are underbankable, where are these Americans going? They're going to payday lenders and check cashers. So if credit unions and banks stop offering overdraft, they don't offer alternatives. They're going to go somewhere where it's going to provide that need that the customer's looking for.
James:
And that just creates this vicious cycle because you know, let's come back to this common enemy. Money is stressful. Money's confusing. Money's frustrating. Money is overwhelming. And this stress I'm telling you this stress, this financial stress is the next epidemic that we are going to see, but it is going to be a silent epidemic because we're only going to see the results of what is coming from this. TD Bank did a study found that 85% of people now are feeling some sort of financial stress. And I forget the FinTech who did another study. People are feeling stress within the last 30 days. They're literally losing sleep. I mean, it's an opportunity to once again, to rally together as a community. And I'm just curious to get your take on this. Why might combating this financial stress and overdraft do play into this common enemy. Why could this be a way to inspire financial brands to really maximize their future digital growth potential by not making it about them, but by making it about other people?
Joel:
Right. And you focus on digital growth and when we look at what digital growth is supposed to be, it's supposed to be for, to truly give the customer in a digital age, what they need and what they want. Obviously there's two different factors they need.
James:
Right.
Joel:
And we just hit on both of those factors that they need financial relationships. They need to be able to manage their accounts. We talk about deposits. We talk about withdrawals, but there's a much bigger financial future to all of these people. So they have to have savings accounts, checking accounts, retirement accounts, loans, and mortgages, and everything else. And if we don't find a way for everyone to come together in all of this, you're going to lose what the foundation of what our financial infrastructure was all about.
James:
Yes.
Joel:
[inaudible 00:13:31] come up because the banks or the credit unions, aren't supplying the needs.
James:
To vacuum.
Joel:
Right. Oh, totally right. You're you're looking around saying this. I used the example and it's still one of my favorites is [inaudible 00:13:43] was home savings and loan, used to build these monuments branches, massive sizes, because people felt safe when you walked in there. Their vault size was exactly the same size as everybody else. But why was it? Because this is where my money, this is my livelihood. This is how I feed my family. You don't find ways to provide the services that they're looking for, the compassion through a digital age. How do you offer compassion through a digital agent? And that's why if you can come together and find a medium, a place where we can come together, the foundation of our industry will survive.
James:
Yes.
Joel:
And all it'll prosper. It'll get bigger.
James:
And it will get bigger because we're making the futures of other people even bigger, better, brighter. And we're seeing, for example, Ally Bank, they've eliminated overdraft. PNC has this new low cash mode giving customers a 24 hour grace period to prevent overdrafts before fees are charged. Huntington Bank has launched standby cash. It's a digital, only loan product. What other movement are you seeing from financial brands to really position around eliminating, or even what I would call optimizing the overdraft experience and how are consumers responding to some of this because some of it's marketing too positioning.
Joel:
Right. Some of it's marketing, for example, PNCs a limited account. You have to apply for it. You have to be in a certain sector of it. And once you're in that category, then you're provided the service. Whereas, and even if it's the Huntington bank example, you still have to apply for it. You have to be in a certain category and you said it earlier. But look at the people that are overdrafting the most, are they necessarily going to be in that category? We had a great conversation and I'll get to the, go back to the answer. But we had a great with one of the largest advocacy groups in the country and it was a consumer action. And they said that low to moderate income people do zero budgeting, zero budgeting. And our technically, and I know it's our technology is life changing because it gives that act to them.
Joel:
So what am I seeing that's actually happening is that people are starting to, okay, we're not going to charge overdraft fees anymore, or we're going to give smaller windows to a limited population. Problem about zero overdraft and sending everything back is again, you've exasperated the problem.
James:
Sure.
Joel:
So we're seeing that happen over and over. And that goes back to the fight or flight. We're seeing a ton of flight, very little fight.
James:
Yes.
Joel:
Very, very little fight. PNC that is a version of fight. Don't get me wrong. That is a version of fight. And we love that category because that flexibility. But what are we seeing? Other versions of fight? Not much most look at the headlines that you're seeing today. James, it's all about flight.
James:
Yes.
Joel:
We're not going to do this anymore. We're not going to charge fees anymore. Fine. Okay. We're going to send everything back. Unfortunately we don't see a lot.
James:
So let's talk about that. This idea, because once again, the common villain, the common enemy fight or flight, what are the opportunities for a financial brand to fight alongside in the trenches with their account holders? What do you see some of the biggest opportunities from your perspective here?
Joel:
My biggest opportunity is providing the window, giving the same services where people are seeking outside. So the payday loan check cashing industry, we just it's about 32 billion today, 32 billion. They anticipate, and we were looking at this, I think it was allied market research. They say by 2030, it'll be a 48 billion.
James:
Wow.
Joel:
That speaks volumes.
James:
Yes.
Joel:
As it says, where are people headed? And they're headed so we need windows. We need control. If the institutions, here's how we take the common villain, the institution says, "Well, we're going to attack the villain together. And we're going to both take a step back." And we're going to say, "Hey, you know what, how do you want to handle this? And we're going to let you handle it the way you want to be able to handle it. And we're going to give you the controls and the mechanisms for you to do it."
Joel:
And once that aspect is put into the industry, once that control is out there, then the bank and the customers to your point, their shoulder, to shoulder of saying, "We got this together. And no matter what you need, wherever we go, we're going to have that." And then you also offer the access to it. So for example, if I don't have the cash, we can give you a loan on this spot. If I can't give you a loan on this spot, I'll give you a little bit of better terms to pay me back. You got to be able to say, you know what, what's the flexibility you need in order to accommodate the needs. As long as we're within our, as long as they're reasonable, and we know we're going to get our money back.
James:
Right.
Joel:
We're willing to be there for you. Because that number for the payday loan check cash you, which as to your point is a common enemy with everybody, regulators, banks, and customers alike, because the rates are out of control.
James:
You mentioned before, it's not about the fee, but I do know there might be some who are listening, who have become, shall we say somewhat addicted to the overdraft. It's a bit of a drug that they've gotten hooked on. What would you recommend for someone who's listening, that are like, I agree with what you're saying, but how do we empower, encourage them to let go of the past to create the future?
Joel:
This is going to be a little bit self-fulfilling James. So I will say this be a little bit self-fulfilling for double check it's, how do we take it from a fee to a customer controlled service charge? So for example, with our technology, the customer can control what's actually happening. So for example, if I have a stop payment, I lost my checkbook or something happened, or I can go to my bank and I got to pay a small charge. If I go to an ATM, I got to pay a small service charge. The reason the customer is okay with all of these, because the customer is choosing to pay the amount of money that's available or whatever they want to do. Right?
James:
Right.
Joel:
So, with our technology, it falls just in line with that. We're going to tell you what we're going to charge you. And you tell us what we are going to charge you by the service that we are providing to you.
James:
Yes.
Joel:
So if I wanted that stop payment, I have to pay a fee for it, or a service charge for it because I'm choosing even think about the word service charge. It's a service I'm providing you a service. You need something from me. I'm going to give you a service rather than a fee, which is almost a penalty itself.
James:
But what I'm hearing too, from a positive standpoint is control. We're giving people back a sense of agency, a sense of control. They can make choices. And I was a kid of the eighties always loved reading choose your own adventure books.
Joel:
Oh my God. Can't believe you just brought that up. Yes. I remember those books.
James:
Now. Here's the thing, dude. My kids, I have four kids, 11, 9, 7, 5, none of the, they like to read, but none of them like to choose your own adventure books. And I'm just crushed because those were some even Oregon Trail playing Oregon Trail on the old Apple computers at school, you got to control the experience. And when we can provide that control, it is a sense of empowerment versus being penalized. Like I'm giving that control back. And so as you look forward towards the future, and this has been a great conversation so far, what are you most hopeful for? What are you most excited about when it comes to optimizing thinking around optimizing four overdrafts for both financial brands, as well as for consumers?
Joel:
You said it's changing how you've always thought about it and choosing a different path. Ass you said before, trying to look outside and understand the opportunity that's been made available. Think outside the box and understand what your customers need and wants. So if you that's, I'm excited because the institutions are starting to get their heads around it. And I will tell you, there's a lot of, besides the legislation that's going on in the world, there's a ton of litigation. There's class lawsuits are popping up right and left and they're going after them. Yes. Because what they're saying to your point is that yeah, you may have disclosed it, but were you really acting in this [inaudible 00:22:59].
James:
Correct.
Joel:
Doing what's interest. Yeah. Yeah. You said we're going to pay this, but did you really do what was the customer was going to want?
James:
And it's the thinking that I want to dig just a little bit as a follow up to your perspective, because what precedes the thinking like if we're looking at, and this is a lot of the thinking that I'm doing around thinking for banking on change, the next book that I'm writing, but there's some paths, predictable paths. It all starts with the belief, the belief system, the belief structure of the self, the team, the organization that then influences the thinking, the thinking then informs the actions. The actions then are the habits. And then the habits become the predictable future. And so literally everything, we roll it back to thinking and beliefs here. I'm always interested to know on the flip side of opportunities, what are the big roadblocks that the dear listener who's encouraged, who is excited alongside you needs to be aware of when it comes to bringing this type of thinking within an organization, what are the roadblocks, what are the challenges that they need to be aware of that they might have to overcome?
Joel:
The significant roadblocks is it's not just you. So if you're the leadership in your organization, you're thinking overall, you're thinking I got my customers, I got my teammates, but there's a whole mid-layer to your point that are old school that have done things exactly the same way they have done them for so many years. A lot of people don't even know why they've always done them for so long. A great story I have is I was given a task by my old, when I was working for my old bank, they said, what impedes the sales process when opening up an account? It was taking almost an hour and a half to open up a checking account. So I brought in a bunch of new accounts. I brought managers, we all sat around a room and right out of the gate, one of the things was, oh my God, it takes forever.
Joel:
We have to put NA in every open space. I said, so if there was a signature, there was five signatures. Four of them had to have NA's all the empty dates everything had. And it was manually that they had to enter this. So I said, "Well, why do we do that?" No one in the room could answer the question. Why do we do that? And that by itself was almost 40 minutes of opening up the account on every signature card that they had to do. So I went back and I went back to back office. I asked it took almost two weeks and no one had an answer. And of course we eventually got rid of, we didn't have to put NA's. And that was because it was old thinking. It was the old mentality.
James:
Yes.
Joel:
And it's the same way that we fall. We don't want to change things we've always done them because we finally got used to doing something a certain way. So the robot comes in when your team, when the leadership is, if leadership can push and say, "Hey, we're going to do this. It may be a little bit challenging. It's going to change our way of thinking and it's, but at the end of the day, it's the right thing to do." And by the way, this isn't just apply to double check. This applies to every aspect of the banking industry in any business, you have.
James:
Yup.
Joel:
And if it's the thing to do, we can find out a way to make it into a good business.
James:
Which, do the right thing is the number eight spot. It's in the number eight spot of what we call our eight elements for exponential growth here at the digital growth institute and do the right thing was inspired by my high school basketball coach, coach Carlisle. He beat that into our heads. You just do the right thing and you talked about change. It could be hard. It could be scary. It could be a little painful, but I want to get real with one final question here for you to empower the dear listener to take that next best step forward so that they can make progress. And because all change begins with a small, simple step it's that this massive transformation that happens all at once. It's momentum, it builds. So what is something small, something practical, something simple that they can apply back at their financial brand to move forward, to make progress with confidence?
Joel:
Is this with our technology or in general?
James:
In general, when it comes to overdrafts and thinking about the customer, customer experience.
Joel:
The first step is start the conversation about what's right. And then engage. I mean, is this where you're going with this?
James:
Yes.
Joel:
Engage it. So let's have the conversation. One of the first things we have is we always, we do our demo, and we sort of give an outline. And the first questions we always get back as the ancient thoughts that they've had to date, then we start to work through them and say, "Well, what if we change it?" And of course they start going back to what, and I know we put this through one of your last questions, but overdraft, if you think about it creates pains for items that are going to be returned or sent back or wasn't going to happen. And if when you and I, somewhat years ago, NSFs and overdrafts and they still are crimes in every single state, but it was a penalty.
Joel:
It was almost, you were perceived as not a good customer. Now, today you're perceived as an extremely profitable customer. So the whole change of thought is let's see how we can change how we think about these customers. Also, and this goes back to in the history. So hardwood floors, if you had hardwood floors, you were considered in the 1920s, you were considered to be poor. Carpet was rich. Now look today, carpet is, hardwood floors are considered to be rich and carpet. Lobster used to be a poor man's food. Now it's now it's considered a wealthy food. When you used to go to the theater, if you sat below, you were considered to be part of the commoners and the upper.
Joel:
Now it's all swapped. So you start to change how you see things and how they're perceived. You realize, "Oh my goodness, is the value really down below in the theater or is really up above? Because I want to see the show. I want to be closer to it." What's more important to the person actually seeing the show? So that to open that conversation up, it's been that way for a long time. Let's open up the conversation to see, wait a second. We've always ended. We can think of it a different way.
James:
I really like that because in my mind, I'm visualizing a glass or a bottle. And through these conversations, you can take someone and remove them from being stuck inside the bottle, walk them around the outside of the bottle, ask probing questions. And so, in these types of conversations, what should the questions they ask? What should they be asking? What should they be thinking about to just look at things from a different light, from a different lens, from a different angle.
Joel:
Firstly, I'm going to say I'm like a time, if you got branches, don't start and stop at corporate. Bring in your front line.
James:
Yes.
Joel:
And then ask the questions. How do your customers feel when this is? I always push go call your tellers, go call your supervisors, go call the people that are touching your customers every single day and then call them into the conversation.
James:
I'm going to actually, I'm going to add that thought because once again, I hear patterns from so many people I'm predicting that 2022. I like to give themes to years because themes give meaning, 2022 is going to be the year of collaboration. And what I mean by collaboration and collaboration internally, collaboration externally, but from an internal perspective, collaboration comes by going on, and I think I learned this, it was from Derek Sutton over at Auto Books. And I've even heard Jeffrey Kindle over at Nibus, go on a listening tour, go on a listening tour to talk to your people, talk to the front lines who are in the trenches, fighting the common enemy alongside your account holders, your customers, your members. And you do that by going all in asking good questions, listening, and then also learning through observation, so what are the questions that the dear listener very practical that they maybe one or two questions that they can just take and have these conversations around here?
Joel:
One question is, what is the biggest, if what would be, if you had your ideal situation, how would you handle as it relates to overdrafts or NSF's? What tool would you like to be able to provide to your customers? Because in the way they consider their customers, what tool would you like to provide to your customers? What would they like to be able to have? And by the way, this goes with small business and consumers. I know we talk a lot about consumers, but small businesses as well. Because they're huge customers. What tools would you like to be able to have? What's your biggest pain point as it relates to dealing with these situations? So part of our technology empowers the teller. So the teller what I found when I was in banking is that there was an overdraft on a NSF event, took an hour, an hour and a half.
Joel:
What is your biggest pain point? Well I got to call supervisor, supervisors got to call back office, back office has to give me the, okay. I have to give it time. Imagine you're taking that much windows. So what is that biggest pain point? What tool would you want to have to the order to relinquish yourself of that pain point? What can I provide to you?
James:
Right.
Joel:
The other question is how do you feel every time you go through one of these experiences? Feeling is incredibly important. If you meet somebody, they may not remember what you said, but they will always remember how you made them feel.
James:
Yes.
Joel:
And what is that feeling like? Not just on your customer side, but is your teller, what is your team? What's the morale when something hits it and I will tell you, it hurts your soul because they empathize one way or another on that other side they're feeling, oh my goodness. That could have been me. That could have been that situation. And anyways, so that's what I ask. How do you feel when these things happen?
James:
Joel, I really appreciate the thinking here because I literally just posted this, this morning and I'm reading verbatim. This is a reply to Renee Newman and we are having a conversation on LinkedIn and I've been doing a lot of thinking and a lot of writing around what I call heart centered thinking. Heart centered thinking, because that is key to what I call human centered growth otherwise, and I think when you think about the banking space, we've got a lot of really smart, left brain driven, analytical people where it is all about the numbers, but then you step outside of that you go into the right brain of the consumer people shop, they buy with their heart and you're right. People are going to remember how you made them feel. And that is key to every single experience. Joel, I appreciate your knowledge, your perspective, your passion. If someone is listening, they want to continue the conversation. The collaboration that we've began together today, what is the best way for them to reach out, say hello to you?
Joel:
Me personally, Joel Schwartz, Joel, J O E L dot Schwartz, S C H W A R T Z at mydoublecheck.com. And of course our website is mydoublecheck.com. That's the easiest way to get ahold of me and this was incredible. We could probably gone on for hours about this.
James:
We definitely-
Joel:
Up about, I love the customers. I love the financial institutions. I love the industry that we get to work in and I love what you're doing here, James. I think it's amazing.
James:
Well, Joel, thank you for the kind words and we do, we work, we have such a noble calling, I believe as an industry and it doesn't matter if you work at a financial brand, a bank, or a credit union or at a MarTech sales tech FinTech, or you're an advisor. We're all working to fight this common enemy of financial stress that is taking a toll on people's lives. So, Joel, thank you. Thank you for your passion. Thank you for your perspective. Thank you for joining me for another episode of Banking on Digital Growth.
Joel:
Thank you very much for having me. I appreciate it.
James:
As always. And until next time, be well, do good and make your bed.
